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A Few Concerns...

Discussion in 'Gameplay Discussion & Feedback' started by Pizzaman, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Pizzaman

    Pizzaman Artisan

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    I'd like to start this post off by saying that, while I have been one of the posters over on the 'thread that shall not be named' I've been trying to ask questions that aren't trollish or just bashing on ToA. I have some legitimate concerns about the game and figured that it'd be better if I asked them here where they might actually get some answers. And the screenshots from this newest newsletter are definitely steps in the right direction. However...

    The features that you're advertising the game with. How do they work with the races that you'll be able to play other than humans? From your roadmap, you say that the game will have 1) Crafting, 2) Fully item-swappable characters, and 3) Structures that you can build. Not to mention 4) It has been said multiple times that you can individually control your character's arms.

    1):
    How exactly do Dragons and Raknar craft things? They don't really have hands to work with items, so do they just mash them together and poof, a finished product? Not to mention, how do they get the resources in the first place? Raknar don't have any way to cut down trees or mine for minerals. Unless they're using their claws to slice through the trunk of a tree but that wouldn't work for rocks. It's the same thing with dragons as well. Not to mention that on the Raknar's page itself on this website, it says that they have no interest in items. So... does this entire facet of the game just not apply to them?

    2):
    So it's obvious that humans will have animations and equipment for each part of their body. But what about the other races? Will dragons and Raknar be flying around with helmets, body armor, gloves, leggings, things like that? This is something that could be implemented fairly easily, but I've seen no mention of anything regarding this at all to date.

    3):
    So the dragon's will have hoards and Raknar have... ? This is the first issue that I have with the store as well. The store is selling plans for homes. But what if you plan to play a non-human race? Does this mean that the home just is useless to you?

    4):
    This is my first issue to bring up about humans. If you're controlling your arms individually with mouse strokes, how do you attack and block at the same time? Or can you just not do that? Because while the idea is cool in theory, I honestly only see it being clunky in implementation. And then there's Raknar and dragons. Dragon's not having arms unless they're rearing up on their hind legs and Raknar having.... 8 limbs. Do you only control 2 of those? Or will it just end up being a cluster fuck of trying to control all 8?


    So those are the questions I have about the roadmap points. But that's not where it ends.
    Bonus round!

    5):
    The PvP aspect of the game. So, by the final stage of the dragon's life, it's some, what, 50 times the size of a human? How do you balance that? If you get into a 1v1 fight will the dragon just squash the human beneath it's foot? Because, at that point, what's the point of even playing a human when it doesn't matter how strong you get because dragon's will just destroy you at a glance. And saying that it'll be incredibly hard to even get to that stage as a dragon doesn't really count. It would be relatively easy since... if you die a bunch as a hatchling or young, you just make a new character. No harm done. What does it matter to you? The game has basically just started for that character after all. I can't really say much about the Raknar on this point since... well... basically nothing is known/shown about them so far in terms of combat other than that they exist.

    6):
    You've said in a video in the past, and I don't know if this still holds up, that there won't be any sort of fast travel in the game. So.. can dragons fly? Because wouldn't that pretty much be a get out of jail free card in combat and a sort of "Fuck you!" to everyone on the ground? Also, on an unrelated note, I want to see someone start up a dragon taxi service.

    7):
    I briefly mentioned resource collection earlier, but I wanted to expand on that here. From the website, it says that you can shovel sand from deserts, get rocks from near anywhere, and build mine shafts to get more precious materials. So... how do Raknar go about collecting sand with their claws? They don't have any way to scoop it. Which is the same as dragons. For the tunnels though, Raknar would be right at home in there! But dragons... would be completely awkward. For starting as a small mine shaft... how exactly would a dragon fit in there as an ancient? It'd have to be big enough for them to turn around in it too. So a small mine shaft for them would be MASSIVE for a human. Meaning that they'd have access to far more materials much faster. If they had any way of collecting them. Do they just headbutt the wall to get copper and silver out? Use flame/ice breath to melt it away?

    So, once more, I wanted to ask these things here to see if I could get some responses from people who support the game and want to see it grow. Because these are all issues that will need to be addressed for the game's development. I'm not trying to bash ToA but, rather, to see if I could help it along or at least get some answers for things that have been nagging at me.
     
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  2. Pizzaman

    Pizzaman Artisan

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    Oh, i forgot to mention one other thing.

    8):
    For the recent newsletter that went out. It looks like you have the beginnings of the chat system in place. However, there's something odd in that. There's three different color schemes in the picture which each correspond to one thing I imagine. (Yellow)(Purple)(Orange) is the order that they're shown. Yellow looks to be a time stamp. Purple is, I imagine, either what type of chat it is or who said it, and Orange is, of course, the content. The thing is, in that picture, either the same person is saying everything since the purple text all aligns or, as mentioned before, that's saying what type of chat it is. If it's the same person saying everything in their, then the people in the demo are oddly quiet. Or, if that's the type of chat... then how do you tell who's saying what? Wouldn't that make things incredibly difficult to do in towns? If you want to sell something, what happens when you have multiple people wanting to buy it? You wouldn't have any way to differentiate them.
     
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  3. Sporkguy

    Sporkguy Artisan

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    Again, welcome to the forums, awesome that you came over to chat!
     
  4. Sporkguy

    Sporkguy Artisan

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    From the guide:

    "If you want others to hear you, you’ll need to get close enough so they can hear you whisper, talk or shout. There will be no global chat in ToA. There will be both a chat window and chat bubbles above the heads of those talking."

    http://trialsofascension.com/guide/basics#.VA-rgqNKbQo
     
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  5. Ildefonse

    Ildefonse Master

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    Hello, and welcome to the forum. Thanks for joining and coming to ask the questions here :)
    Since no one replied yet, I will try to go over your points. However, I fully expect to be beaten to it by someone else anyway ;)

    Oh well, here goes.

    I think the point of other races in ToA (well, at least Raknar and Humans), is that they will have a very different playstyle. They are not going to be just another race which can do the same things as humans can. Because that would basically be the same as humans with a different skin.

    Instead, ToA aims to provide vastly different play style experience for the other races. The Raknar for example, are a bestial race. They will not be able to craft or wear/use items. They will be able to create hives, but that's about as far as it goes in terms of how advanced they are.

    So what do you do with a Raknar character? You kill, you hunt humans, you eat them. It's a PK'ers wet dream. You will have a killing machine at your disposal, and you will be able to hunt alone, or with a group, attack settlements, etc.

    As for dragons, that's another bestial race, so they also will not be able to craft. The idea behind dragons, is that you start out as a weak pathetic hatchling for whom it is a big challenge to survive, let alone grow to the next stage. Once you do however, and if you can make it to adulthood, you will have very strong powers at your disposal. So what's the appeal there? I think the challenge of making it to adulthood, the idea you can have one of the most powerful characters on the server... if you manage to make it that far.

    Here's a good thread where other racial differences are discussed: http://www.trialsofascension.com/forum/threads/racial-differences.189/

    Good questions. I think the combat system is being tweaked at the moment, but the idea was that you control your left arm with the left mouse button, and the right arm with the right mouse button. So if you want to block with the right arm, you'd click with the right button, and hold it, while attacking with the left.

    As for how dragons/raknar will work, I don't know yet.

    Dragons are not supposed to be balanced in terms of a 1v1 fight with humans. ToA is really trying to get away from the "everything must be balanced and fair" idea. So if you manage to get a full grown dragon, and you come across a human, then yes. You will likely be able to squish him. It will take an army of humans to take you down.

    However! It is going to be very, very, very difficult to obtain an adult dragon, as you have to grow through various stages without losing all of your life counters. In fact, I think it's going to be so hard, that most people will give up, and that maybe we will ever see one or two adult dragons on a server at the same time, tops.

    That's at least how difficult I hope it will be. I can't speak for FC, but I'm sure that if they see it's going to be too easy to get that kind of power, they will tweak the game and make it harder.

    Will you really keep making new dragon characters over and over and dying a thousand times? If you do, then yes, you might get a powerful dragon. But my guess is that most people will give up after the 3rd attempt. That's how ridiculously hard it should be :)

    So yes, in ToA, you can get unbalanced power, e.g. adult dragons, powerful mages, but it's going to cost you and you might not make it at all to get that kind of power.

    I believe dragons will only get flight after they reach a certain size. So no flying hatchlings for sure. And even then, it will cost them stamina so they won't be able to fly forever.

    The same answer as I gave earlier should hold here. Dragons and Rakner have no interest in mining or collecting sand. Dragons will collect items for their hoard, yes, but that's about it. They do not craft or build.

    Cheers, I hope these answers help, but feel free to post follow up questions.
     
  6. Ildefonse

    Ildefonse Master

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    The chat system (and the whole UI) is currently being revamped I believe, and that was a very,very basic first attempt... I wouldn't put too much thought into it as of yet.

    But there will be yelling, normal talking, and whispering. Not sure how they will be color coded or distinguished yet.

    And if the people in the demo look quiet, it's probably because they mostly talk on vent rather than chat :)
     
  7. Bruxail

    Bruxail Master

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    Welcome Pizzaman!

    I will make a general statement in response which will be something I think you already expected. Dragons and Raknar cannot craft that we are aware of, that is reserved for humans. We assume they will have skill trees of some sort since they have attacks they need to get better at.

    Yes, if you buy a house plan or house that will be useless to a Raknar and dragon. They will have to find places to live, like big caves.

    I have said my peace so I will let others chime in. Again, welcome to the forums.

    Well, phfft, Ildefonses replies were not there when I started. :) Ah well, what he said.
     
  8. Sporkguy

    Sporkguy Artisan

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    Awesome answers Ildefonse, and yes I beat you! But since you are the keeper of the the TOA Wiki I fully submit that your answers are likely more knowledgeable than mine.

    By the way Pizzaman, two great resources for some of your questions:

    http://trialsofascension.com/guide/ - this is the Devs own guide, and always has the most up to date info.

    http://www.toa-wiki.com/wiki/Trials_of_Ascension_Wiki - this is the wiki, and is kept by Ildefonse and other fans and while it isn't always as up to date as the guide, it has 489 articles last I checked.
     
  9. Elifia

    Elifia Veteran

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    I can answer some of those. For starters I should probably mention that the roadmap is for the demo, not the finished game. The demo only has humans.

    1) They don't, really. Dragons can only make a nest out of shiny (their hoard) and infuse gems with their breath to make traps. Raknar might be able to craft hives (it's in their lore) but that hasn't been confirmed.

    2) No. Armour and stuff is for civilised species only.

    3) Yeah, most of the stuff in the store is for humans only. Dragons aren't even going to be in at launch currently (we have yet to make the 60k goal) so it's logical they don't have much stuff in the store. Raknar have had some skins in the store, but they won't have any possessions or anything, so that's probably all they'll ever get.

    4) I'm pretty sure I saw a video in which the character blocked and attacked simultaneously. Dunno how the controls for that work though. I think it's fair to assume you won't be controlling each limb individually for beast species as there's no need, as they don't have hands and thus can't hold anything.

    5) Dragons are supposedly gonna be so hard to play that there's no way there'll be more than 2 Ancients alive at any point in time. And getting through the hatchling phase is not gonna be fun. You'll be slaughtered over and over and over again. So the balance lies in only the very most determined player on the server actually getting to play as an Ancient, while every other person on the server is their enemy and trying to kill them. You might be the most powerful individual out there, but when you are alone against the entire rest of the world, you'll see that personal strength isn't everything. "Ti batobot batobot geou pok ve de xoalir."

    6) Yes, dragons can fly. Or rather, they can learn to if they're old enough. But it's not a free getaway. There's a reason you need to learn it. It's difficult. It consumes stamina. I doubt you'll be able to achieve lift-off in the middle of combat.

    7) They can't, see answer 1 through 3.
     
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  10. Sporkguy

    Sporkguy Artisan

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    And we still donated! Oh the horror! ;):goblin:
     
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  11. Aria

    Aria Veteran

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    Good questions! And welcome to the forum, Pizzaman!

    I feel like I wouldn't be able to answer your questions very well, but I should mention that ToA has humanoid/civilized races, who can craft and have houses, etc, and they will also have bestial races, who have a very different playing style (and they are my favorite!). Raknar and Dragons are both bestial races and have different priorities and gameplay options than their human counterparts. Dragons have nests and Raknar have hives, while humans have houses. They also have their own skills. Their control functions, I can't tell you though, since I have no idea!
     
  12. Pizzaman

    Pizzaman Artisan

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    So that was a lot more answers than I was expecting actually. But... Doesn't that mean that the Raknar are not just a PvPers wet dream but also a griefers? They could literally just camp the human starting area and, since there's no balancing in the game, they'd basically be invulnerable.

    Also, the reason that I'm bringing up all these unknowns about Raknar and Dragons is that, for a game where everyone seems to be so excited about the dragons and where it's been said several times how they look amazing... we know very VERY little about them. And, as far as development goes, there's been 0 work done on them outside of concept art. At least to my knowledge. So... that takes any excitement I had about it and brings it pretty far down.
     
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  13. Sporkguy

    Sporkguy Artisan

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    There are two choices for starting areas, the Monolith - or any settlement in the entire game that allows new players to start there. All settlements/cities will be completely player run, but there will be very tough NPC guards that will protect well put together settlements. The guards hate Raknar because in the lore the world is just coming out of a huge human/raknar war where both races were just about completely demolished. The monolith does not allow violence. Any PC that attacks any other PC will be killed immediately by a mysterious power.

    The wilds will be dangerous!!! Not just by players, but beasts and NPC monsters and other threats. The general recommendation is don't go out alone. This won't be a game that will be easy as a solo human for sure!

    I don't see Raknar as invulnerable, as technically the humans won the war, though barely. They will be tough. A good Raknar - human war will be fun, but watch out for the other threats while camping the humans as well. Great thoughts Pizzaman, love the idea. I hope to camp some humans now and then when I am rolling with a Raknar character.

    For me, I am no dragon guy so I am with you on that not being an exciting point for me. I think this is a really fun experiment that could really give us a new look at MMOs.
     
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  14. Sporkguy

    Sporkguy Artisan

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    Haha, Brax's old signature used to be something along the lines of "That's not griefing, that's a feature!"

    Maybe that gives you an idea that this game is fairly PVP heavy, and we think that makes it worth playing!
     
  15. Aria

    Aria Veteran

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    Good question once again. I'll tryyyyy to answer with my interpretation. Someone may give you a better answer though.

    ToA won't be your typical "grind on low level mobs" in order to gain experience. Humans will be able to spawn in protected settlements, where there will be an arena to train your combat skill in. You shouldn't leave the settlement if you can't hold your own. Even then, you shouldn't leave without supplies and by yourself! You're up for an adventure and a challenge if you do!

    Raknar have their weaknesses as well. They cannot swim and are weak to fire, so torches are a must. As a Raknar, hanging around close to a settlement is a poor idea. There are guards, and the able bodied players can't wait to kill you.

    The game focuses on community achievement instead of individual achievement, so it is different and may not be for everyone. Staying in a settlement until you are capable may not appeal to some people, but you aren't going to be alone, especially at night. The wilds are supposed to be dangerous. Consider it a hard mode challenge.
     
  16. Ondria

    Ondria Writer

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    This alignment could also be caused by the naming system. If you haven't named anyone then they would all have the same default text be it "stranger", "unknown", "???", or whatever variation is decided upon.
     
  17. Metalshock

    Metalshock Artisan

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    It's unlikely Raknar will get to that "human starting area" due to stuff mentioned above. there's 4 starting settlements with NPC guards that KoS anything not human (or humanoid, when more are released later), the Monolith who 1hk anyone who attempts combat within it's area, to anything, and finally player made settlements that make themselves open to new player spawning. these areas would be populated with people or other defenses to keep Dragons, Raknar, or anything else "evil" outside. if a Raknar manages to spawncamp a person, well, that settlement is crap and spawn elsewhere next time.
     
  18. Teddy

    Teddy Artisan

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    As of now everyone's chat name comes up as [???] because you don't know who is saying it. that reason is currently two fold. 1) we don't have a way in game yet to name yourself because 2)we don't have the login database system quite finished (although extremely close) , we just had some integration issues (due to one line of code) and I have yet to implement it because I have been re-working the combat system. Which brings me to one of your other points :)

    Obviously from our video that we released we got a lot of negative feedback from the sloppyness/clunkyness of how it looked. Also later when we did our network tests, this was the main complaint. Well, we are not idiots, and we are not stubborn, so the logical thing to do was go back and make some changes! I LOVE the changes, it looks WAY better, and it still plays sort of the same with individual arm control, but we had to limit some of the options to make it look/feel better. This new system is not yet networked, but I will try to integrate it in fully tonight, and I will probably be making a preview video of it here tonight as well! So be on the lookout. :D If I can manage to finish the networking side of things then we will record that, else I will just record me swinging around solo in the test environment I set up.


    ahhh, and thank you for voicing your concerns here! :woot: That is always appreciated...untill you go back to the other forum and report how inadequate the responses were, rather then voicing those thoughts here.

    ...Oh and as a separate note, please tell the people on MMO-C that we have ZERO unity default assets. If they can find a screenshot of a default unity asset (this does not include GUI, because if you use unity you would know that every single gui element has to be replaced by a skin, which takes quite a lot of time and is not even close to #1 priority at the moment) and compare it to something in game, I will quit my job on the spot :)
     
  19. Metalshock

    Metalshock Artisan

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    Redact that :c we can't afford to lose you over a tiny pebble asset x..x
     
  20. Teddy

    Teddy Artisan

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    nope, there is 0 assets (models, textures, animations, skyboxes, sounds) in the game that are default unity assets. 100% guaranteed. Even the unity pro water material that almost ALL unity games use because it looks so good is not in our game.

    even the material shaders are not default because we are using physics based lighting... LOL (although there is absolutely 0 crime against using 'default' shaders in the game making world)
     

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